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While browsing a magazine, John came across a couple of
quotes from a book, The Sacred Hub, by Robert Rabbin. Upon reading them, he
recognized that this man had had an awakening and contacted him in southern
California by phone. This was the first contact made after the idea for this
book was born.
When Robert came to the Bay Area a month later, we were able to attend one of is
evening talks. The silence in his presence was palpable and Robert’s responses
to questions were thorough and often revealed an unusual perspective and a very
creative vision. During a conversation after the class, Robert agreed to do an
interview with John, and so the book began. At this point, Lynn Marie had not
yet joined the interviewing process.
Initially Robert seemed to be profoundly unpredictable which was somewhat
unnerving. This quickly passed, however, as a warm relatedness and our common
interest too its place. Robert’s interest in the spontaneous, original
expression of Truth was complemented by Jon’s genuine appreciation of the
immediate potency and beauty of his words.
Robert now lectures and leads seminars around the country and is consulted by
individuals as well as corporate and community leaders on a broad range of
personal and professional issues. He has authored several books in addition to
The Sacred Hub, and his articles and columns are published internationally in
magazines and newspapers. Robert is a frequent speaker to groups in the
business, academic, and spiritual communities.
Robert has had a lifelong interest in the nature of the human mind and
consciousness. He studied with Swami Muktananda in India, and subsequently his
spiritual inquiry has been profoundly influenced by Ramana Maharshi and
Nisargadatta Maharaj.
CONVERSATION with ROBERT RABBIN
John Wins: The first question is, "Who are you?"
Robert Rabbin: There are several levels at which that can be answered.
However, whatever one says, however precise and comprehensive one’s self
definition is, the deepest truth of who one is only begins to be revealed in
silence. An old Chinese poet once remarked, “99.9% of everything you do and of
everything you think is for the sake of yourself. And you don’t have one.”
We are all, in our essence, the dynamic eternal awareness in which the mystery
of life occurs. That is who I am, and that is who you are. The secondary
definitions that include one’s roles in life, one’s personal history and
personality and character particulars are not very important. They shouldn’t be
taken too seriously. We ought to have disclaimers attached to our personal
histories similar to the ones used by psychic hotlines: For entertainment
purposes only.
JW: What is enlightenment, realization, awakening?
RR: They are merely words, and as with all words they must be defined
within a particular context. With respect to the thrust of our conversation,
these words point beyond themselves. We must not get caught in what they might
mean conceptually. They refer to something beyond conceptual knowing.
JW: Do they refer to something for you? What would you say?
RR: Of the terms you mentioned, the one that has the most relevance is
awakening. Awakening is an interesting word. It feels alive to me. The way we
use it in common language is to say that I have awakened from sleep or that I
have awakened from a dream or from a nightmare or from some kind of delusion.
Knowing what your interest is, the awakening that we're talking about—that
towards which the word awakening points—is very similar to the experience of
waking up from sleep, from dreams, from a nightmare, to the waking state. But in
this “awakening” we awaken from the waking state into the awakened state, or
reality. This kind of awakening is an experience not unfamiliar to most of us,
though we experience it briefly and are conditioned to turn away from it
quickly. You mentioned this the other night in class when you described your own
episodes of satori, the glimpse into reality.
Many people have experienced this sudden stab of love in the heart and the
effortless expansion beyond doubt. In this awakening we find our self in love
and struck by beauty such that we become silent. In that silence we experience
the truth of who we are and perceive something greater than what we normally
perceive in the waking state. In that silence we realize our oneness with that
awareness in which everything occurs.
I think what awakening refers to is the experience of being truly alive and
aware—free from the distortions imposed by the limitations of our senses and the
patterns within our mind. And this awakening certainly liberates us from the
accumulation of false identities through which our memory creates and sustains a
sense of separateness from the whole. Of course, the practical memory remains.
You’ll still be able to program your VCR.
JW: So awakening refers to the awareness of that in which all things may
or may not be occurring. Is that what you mean?
RR: I do mean that. But it isn’t enough to be able to just say it. It is
necessary to have the direct experience, because what you just said, while I
don't disagree, is still conceptual. We should remember what Rumi said, “No
matter how you think it is, it’s different than that!”
The actual experience is always different from the words used to describe the
experience, and in this case so radically different that there is no correlation
between saying it and experiencing it.
It's very important to use concepts, especially ones built upon the words of
others, carefully. We ought to remain suspicious of our own comfort with
conceptual knowing because in the matters of which we are speaking, it is the
difference between the menu and the meal. It's so important that we learn to see
the ease with which we quickly develop a conceptual representation of that which
is utterly beyond representation, and then think it is the same thing. The mind
is such a gossip and busybody and it loves to pretend to know what it cannot
know.
Rather than developing our reliance on concepts and the words of others, we
ought to develop an original form of self-expression that demonstrates the
experience of our oneness with that awareness. I think we become lazy because of
our habitual borrowing of expressions from Lao Tzu, or the Buddha, or this
teacher or that scripture. It’s much more exciting and alive and fun to speak
with originality about one’s direct experience.
As we practice articulating in an original way the subtle facets of our being,
we will live in the evocative climate of that awareness. We will be able to see
for ourselves how ever present the awakened state is. And we will know, through
experience, reflection, and expression that it is much greater than the phrasing
“the awareness in which everything occurs.”
JW: How did this occur to you—the awakening?
RR: Really speaking, there isn't an awakening, even though we speak as
though there is. The awakening refers to an original, uncorrupted presence. It
isn’t a state of mind or being because anything we can say will not be true
enough to approximate what the word “awakening” points to. Even if the awakening
did occur, it wouldn’t occur to anyone because that is the price of admission,
so to speak. Whoever one thinks one is, that disappears in the awakening. This
awakening doesn't belong to anyone and it doesn’t occur to anyone. It is
eternally present and apparent; so it can never be more revealed than it is
right now. It can never be more present than it is right now. It is never lost.
It is never achieved. The clarity and freedom inherent in what we are calling
awakening begins to shine through when an individual becomes transparent enough.
So really one doesn't awaken. One stops pretending to be other than what they
are. It has more to do with either taking off the various costumes, or keeping
the costume on but knowing it is a costume and taking great delight in the
costume.
I did spend a lot of time and energy investigating myself; I explored my
attachment to various costumes, various forms of make believe and pretense. And
then, in the course of these investigations and explorations, there was a kind
of passing away of the dense constellation of elements that we take to be the
personal self. I’m trying to remember what actually happened, but it is beyond
my recollection because it was not really a particular experience or singular
event. It seems that it was more like a piece of ice melting. At some point,
there was only water: fluid, flowing, expansive.
It’s more like one day, your self-interest and self-concern just drift out to
sea and you stop recycling the reactivity gathered from past experiences. What
remains when the preoccupation with “self” disappears is a different kind of
person, one in whom suffering and confusion and doubt don’t stick. The sense of
being an individual remains, but it remains within a much larger context of
awareness. It is as though the individual self is a cloud in a vast sky. The
cloud is suspended within the sky, changing shape according to situations.
JW: Do you have any suggestions or recommendations for others who are
experiencing a desire for awakening to the truth.
RR: I would say to those people who have an interest in awakening that
they become very close to that urge within them which is inciting them to
investigate the truth of things. That will be their guide. And, being their
guide, it may take them to India, Japan, Korea, South America. It may take them
to Berkeley or Redwood City or St. Louis or Los Angeles. It may take them into
the presence of a teacher or not. It may take them into the presence of a
structured path or not.
Trust that. Learn to discern its effect in your life. And when it takes you
someplace, then give yourself to where it has taken you fully and without
reservation. If it takes you into the presence of a teacher, then for as long as
you are there, become the absolute best student you can be. If it takes you into
the presence of a hatha yoga studio, then become the absolute best yogi you can
be. If it takes you into a job at the post office, then do your work with
absolute clear-eyed integrity and open-hearted compassion and ferocious skill.
And in that way, know that the energy which is urging you, the pressure within
you that is moving you towards the awakening is the awakening itself. And follow
it.
For those people who are tired of pursuing and want to end the whole game in a
hurry, just investigate who you are as an experiencer, as a perceiver, as an
individual. See who you are through merciless self-inquiry. Awakening occurs
naturally as we release our hold on conceptual thinking, as we develop our
ability to listen deeply, to see beyond appearances. The state of clarity exists
within us, fully developed, ripe and ready for eating. This clarity becomes
self-evident in silence.
I am also tempted to say that people should meditate, by which I mean to turn
one’s attention inward so as to be able to observe the nature and function of
the mind directly. In this way, one can easily see the ways in which we block
the light of our innate clarity. This seeing occurs in silence. It is
spontaneous and beyond words. That with which we observe the nature of mind from
a place of silence and openness is awareness itself.
JW: Thank you. It seems that more and more people are awakening to the
truth of their being in the Western world. Does it seem so to you and if so,
what does it signify?
RR: I don't know whether or not that is happening.
I would say that the nature of people’s beliefs is expanding to include
non-conventional realities, and because their beliefs are expanding, the range
of their perceptions and experience is expanding. But new beliefs do not equate
to clarity, which is the hallmark of awakening. Awakening is a fireball that
engulfs the fantasies of the mind. The awakening has a scorched earth policy.
Everything that was is reduced to silence, and then from that silence a new life
emerges. But there must be the silence first; the furnace must do its work.
Certainly, there is a widespread interest in spirituality, in awakening. One can
see Deepak Chopra or Marianne Williamson on Larry King. One can see Gary Zukav
on Oprah. We can see the influence of the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh within
political and business circles. Ram Dass has been to the White House.
If there is a great awakening going on, we should be able to see more and more
people expressing that clarity and freedom in their lives, not just in their
conversations. As Chogyam Trungpa said, "There is no enlightenment. There is
only enlightened activity."
JW: What is the source of suffering in the world? And what, if anything,
do you think can or should be done.
RR: The suffering in the world is not different than the suffering within
one’s own self. There is no suffering in the world that doesn't originate in the
suffering within one's own consciousness. It is my view that suffering
originates from alienation from the truth; suffering comes from the despair, the
loneliness, the tension, and the fear of misperceiving who one is. In the moment
of awakening, suffering ends regardless of the subsequent conditions or
circumstances in a person's life. In the moment of awakening, suffering ends.
And when suffering ends within oneself, one is no longer capable of inflicting
suffering on others and therefore does not contribute to the suffering in the
world.
So if suffering is to end in the world, suffering must end within ourselves. For
suffering to end within ourselves, we must come to know who we are. In knowing
who we are, all forms of unnecessary violence and chaos and oppression disappear
because there is no longer any motivation for them. The motivation for those
acts of terrorism dissolves in the awakening. After that, suffering and violence
can't occur.
JW: So without operating out of a personal life, how do you make
decisions if you don't do anything?
RR: I think it's the most frequently asked question. It's the question of
greatest concern for people: “Well if I don't do it, how will it get done and
what will happen to me?”
Things will happen as they have always happened. As the limited sense of “I”
becomes submerged in the expanse of clarity, we begin to see how things have
always happened. I think it was Nisargadatta Maharaj who said that anything that
happens is the result of everything that happens. It is only our egocentric
perspective that likes to take sole ownership for what happens.
Of course, from this perspective, we can believe that through one's own efforts,
particular results occur. And this is true, but it is true within the relativity
of this limited self. From this egocentric perspective, we can indeed make a
relationship between “our” intention and effort and a particular result. From
this perspective, cause and effect are linear. From another perspective, this is
not true.
When one awakens, the solidity of one's self dissipates, and thus it is more
difficult to draw precise lines between this effort and that result, because it
is more difficult to locate a starting point of intention or effort. As long as
we are embodied, we will be compelled to participate, to act, to be involved in
producing outcomes. But we do so from within a larger context than our own
“personal” effort.
And in that greater context than the personal, in that awakened state, things
happen of their own accord, in such a way that the mind can never understand
because a mind cannot fathom that reality. To say that things happen of their
own accord does not mean that we are not involved in the happening.
The greater problem here is that it is our mind that wants to know,
definitively, how things happen. The mind can never know. It is too limited a
means: it cannot recognize how things occur outside of time and location and
effort and intention. It wants to remain the center of things, one way or
another. It wants a degree of certainty, and thus control, to mitigate the fear
that lurks within its own center.
I would like to say in passing that when we awaken, the “outcomes” we seek are
much different than before. We do not work against life, seeking something only
for the sake of the limited self. Our concern for the limited self is not our
motivating force. We begin to live happily in the larger unfolding of life, with
all of its mystery and spontaneity.
JW: So without operating out of a personal life, from that perspective,
how do you experience relationships with others?
RR: Relationships are created according to the quality that I bring to my
encounter with each moment. So it is always a new event, moment to moment,
according to the qualities that I bring to my encounters with others. If I'm
open, if I'm closed, if I'm grasping, if I'm not. If I'm ambitious, if I'm
lustful. All of these qualities determine the nature of a relationship, and the
relationship reflects how I am.
Relationships are a very powerful mirror for how we are being. It is a wonderful
practice field to see whether or not our clarity is expressing itself in action,
or whether the many hands of our mind and ego are grabbing, pulling, and
tearing.
JW: So as you know, Westerners are very much into self-improvement. And
does involvement in the various therapies and spiritual practices assist the
awakening?
RR: Anything can be a catalyst for the awakening. But there is no exact
formula that will be effective for all people all the time. If in reading your
particular Enneagram tomorrow, something strikes you and you have a revelation
of clarity, we could say the Enneagram was useful for you to awaken. I think it
would then be a mistake for you to go out and insist that all of your friends
take up the study of the Enneagram. I think it would be a mistake to think that
the Enneagram has any particular value in terms of its ability to awaken. It was
a part of the whole moment. And every moment, because it lives in awakening, is
an expression of the awakened state. Everything—a cat, a flower, the Enneagram,
a seminar, a guru's touch, reading a book, a Fritos commercial on TV—can in some
way facilitate the awakening. Remember, what we are calling awakening is a
pre-existing fact of existence. Clarity can burst forth at any moment, with or
without discernible cause, because everything grows out of the soil of that
clarity.
JW: Is there anything else you would like to add.
RR: I would add that silence is the greatest teacher. I know that we want
to be able to “know” how things are, how things happen, who we are. We can know
these things, but only within the sphere of the mind. There comes a moment when
one no longer needs explanations and definitions. There comes a moment when
simplicity is enough, when clarity in each moment is enough, when spontaneous
action is enough. A great peace and contentment exists within us, perfectly
formed, and that is enough. Within silence, all is known, silently. Whatever is
said about that silence is too noisy and complex. Ramana Maharshi said, “When
you know yourself, all else will be known.” This is my experience. We know
ourselves in silence, and from this silence a life of freedom, clarity, and joy
emerges effortlessly.
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